Embracing Rapid Tech Evolutions to Enhance Estates Management in Schools

Episode 16

Facilities Management Podcast


About this episode

Rachel Green, the Director of Estates and Facilities at the Girls Learning Trust, explains the importance of adaptability and resilience in the FM environment to help embrace the advancements in AI in schools.


Matt (HOST): Hi everyone, welcome to the show. Great to have you here as it always is. 

Today our guest is Rachel and Rachel is the Director of Estates and Facilities at the Girls Learning Trust. Having recently joined the Girls Learning Trust, Rachel brings a wide range of experience and a depth of expertise gained from a career in senior positions across higher education, healthcare and the charity sector.

Rachel led the relocation and £70 million construction of Ravensbourne University at Greenwich Peninsula. She’s run her own management consultancy and more recently worked with the Children’s Trust where she led on the transformation of the Estates function and delivered a comprehensive estate strategy for the 24 acre estate in Surrey. Rachel has great experience and expertise in estates and FM, as well as a passion for education and being a role model for young women. 

So, it would be great to get her take on facilities management. Hi, Rachel, thanks for coming on the show. It is great to have you here. How are you?

Rachel Green: I’m really good, Matt. Lovely to be here, thank you.

Matt: And how’s everything going at work? Anything interesting going on at the moment?

Rachel: [Work is] Really busy. I’ve just started a new job, five weeks in. So [I am] wide-eyed and learning a lot. It’s going really well.

Matt: Awesome. All right, well, let’s jump straight in. But before we do, how’s about you tell the audience a little bit more about what you do specifically?

Rachel: Okay, so I’m a Director of Estates and Facilities. I work in secondary education and I haven’t come up through the traditional route of FM. I trained as an accountant a long time ago and decided they weren’t my people; it wasn’t for me. So, I migrated into another role which was much more operational and was the business manager of a secondary school many years ago. and ended up working for a university and was operations director for London University for a long time. And then I’ve seemed to have specialised along the way and have landed in a very comfortable place which I really enjoy in the Estates and facilities.

Matt: Awesome. Well then let’s just jump straight into the show and the first question and that is, how do you go about setting a good facilities management culture?

Rachel: Excellent question, Matt. I think I would certainly start with them trying to understand or have a clear understanding of what good looks like before I could even begin to set about it. So, I think for me that would include a number of things and that would start, I guess I’d start with collaboration and making sure that the team worked in a collaborative way both within the FM team and among other stakeholders and that’s with a sense of creating collective responsibility and working towards common goals. Certainly, have a customer centric approach. Where we could prioritize the needs of stakeholders and support the core business of the organization as well. I think that’s really important.

And then embed continuous improvement into the team by, I think, creating an always learning culture and a mindset that actively seeks opportunities to enhance processes and engage with new technologies and optimize resources. And then put alongside that continuous professional development of the team required to allow for it. 

Perhaps I should have mentioned first and foremost around a safety culture, safety and wellbeing with robust health and safety arrangements and with the team trained to a level where they’re empowered to prioritize safety day to day. I think that’s really important as well as being accountable. 

I think accountability for outcomes, linking those two back to that always learning mindset. And having some pride in the work and good results and being transparent about that and ensuring information is shared openly and accurately. And then that effective communication opens up an opportunity for feedback and for the facilities management team to be open to listen and understand and address issues and concerns and I think maybe perhaps one last thing I’m going to add one more thing to my list and that would-

Matt: Go for it.

Rachel: Thank you, it’s a long list. I would add to that adaptability and resilience. I think that FM is an inevitable environment where there are challenges and change and things that we have to deal with along the way. And some of those are obvious, things that we would need to manage, but then I’m mindful of where we are at present. There’s an evolution of technology that’s really quite rapid, including AI and how FM’s embrace those advancements. And I think within a really short, really quite short period of time, we’re seeing huge advancements. And with that comes expectation and we need to be adaptable to respond effectively and allow for the profession to evolve and the skills needed with it.

I think this takes a degree of courage from those in the profession to move onwards and evolve towards new ways of doing things. We’ve seen the profession evolve rapidly from background service with minimal visibility, a handyman, a caretaker, a basement based function that’s progressed into teams of professionally experienced and qualified individuals who are collectively providing that physical environment that supports and facilitates the core business of many organizations. So, for me, that’s what good looks like you package those things up, that might be what it looks like. And then I think about your question, you know, how do we go about setting it? Once you have a clear understanding of what it looks like, we can start to act upon it. So, I would suggest that setting that good culture is underpinned by having clearly defined objectives. So, a very clear vision for the estate and estate strategy and an asset management plan that are aligned with the organization’s goals.I would definitely ensure that sets out clearly how the function is going to support the core business activities. I think that’s really important to align those things and for that to be visible. 

What else? I’m a great believer in leading by example. So, setting the tone for the team by being a consistent leader, a visible leader, and demonstrating the importance of and the commitment to raising and maintaining standards and professionalism and remaining focused on the stakeholder and service levels. And without that being visible, being accessible and engaging with the full team. I think what goes along with that is established. really strong channels of communication, fostering openness and transparency and promoting co-production where we can, looking for those opportunities for co-production across teams. 

And then staff development, support the team members in their career aspirations, as well as trying to support the role that they’re in at that moment. I think it’s really vital that we encourage training and development, and we encourage our teams to build a network that ensures that they stay up to date. and aligned with relevant industry standards and best practice. And as I mentioned earlier about safety, I think safety culture is critical and that needs to be a top priority.

So, stating those clear arrangements for working and compliance management and monitoring, risk management and promoting the reporting of accidents and emissions and so on. And then how do we measure? How do we know that we’re doing well? So, performance measurement and benchmarking and reporting those and that then facilitates a number of things, such as allowing for improvements and supporting decision making, and all in that context of the good culture. And that allows the team to recognize and take pride in the outcomes of their work, and to know where they’re doing well. And one last thing that comes to mind is about continuous improvement, acknowledging when we get it wrong, you know, we’d love to be perfect, but recognizing that when things go wrong, there are opportunities to learn and to do better. So, and within that, tacking on to that is encouraging innovation and recognizing and rewarding achievements. I think that’s so important to recognize and celebrate success to reinforce that good and positive culture.

Matt: Yes, well, we will definitely get into some of those topics later on in the show. Talking about receiving praise from people and also the technology side, which is moving very, very quickly, as you mentioned. So, some very interesting points there. So, what’s the best way to plan for facilities management activities?

Rachel: As I mentioned earlier about having a plan, so having a strategy, having a vision, I think it starts with knowing your objectives, build from the foundation of the vision. I think it’s pretty much impossible to plan for something if you don’t know where you’re going, and you don’t know how you’re going to get there. So be clear about the goal that you want to achieve, ensure it’s aligned with the organizational requirements. That would be my starting point as a basics. And then more sort of operationally, understand the current maintenance strategy. Is it purely reactive? If so, develop a justification and plan for moving to something proactive and look at the efficiencies that could be gained by that. And for some organizations, I think that could be quite an undertaking and require a long-term plan to turn that around. I’ve experienced that in a couple of settings and that takes time. That’s a big cultural shift for an organization.

So, for some, a good plan will need baseline information and primary data. And I think a lot of organizations might not have some of that. And again, that’s within my experience of finding organizations that may not have an asset list or condition assessments of buildings, fabric and services. But when you’ve got that and you can know your deficiencies, risks and areas that require improvements, it serves as a basis for planning those activities. And then that baseline information allows for prioritisation in step with that. So prioritising safety, compliance and operational requirements. That then links to other considerations such as budget and resource availability and dependency within the activities. So, all of that information then builds on our ability to develop a comprehensive plan. So, I’ve mentioned resources and how we allocate resources. And I will mention, because I think often it’s a topic in a lot of organizations about how we negotiate those. That’s often an issue. What’s gonna come first? What’s the most important? And then developing our maintenance schedules and implementing our PPMs for those and understanding procurement routes in particular. So, knowing what the requirements of the organization are. And I think I would just want to touch on something here about the point about resources. Knowing how we might deliver our activities is really important. So, for example, what elements are outsourced and what are in-house? What skill sets are required to deliver a plan? Do they exist in-house? And what are the risks associated with the skill gaps within an organisation. So, an example would be at Ravensbourne University, we relocated from a 1970s build, it was slowly dilapidating. It operated in a really simple way with an in-house estates team that were delivering those requirements. But longer term, it really wasn’t viable for us to upgrade that site to remain with our requirements of the core business. So, we had this issue, how are we going to update our estate? And we reached a point where we realised that we couldn’t. We couldn’t do that. We didn’t have a sustainable environment, let alone reaching modern standards of building management and compliance. So, we sold the site and that supported the development of a purpose-built building in Greenwich.And then overnight, the FM requirements changed and we didn’t possess the immediate skills to operate and manage the building. So that presented a risk. So, the mitigation for that was to outsource hard and soft FM. And what that did is it gave us that immediate mitigation of our risk as we went in. And we knew that was not a permanent arrangement, but it gave us a five-year period of time to migrate into that new environment and learn it. And then I believe the organization’s gone on is doing something different now. Don’t work there anymore, but that was what I did at the time. And that might not be right for someone else’s side, but that was what was right for us at that moment.

Matt: So, when you mentioned that they sold the site, was it a quick-fire sale or did it take some time? It must have been pretty difficult. So how did you go about managing that?

Rachel: Very complex, but it was a long tail project. This was from the time that somebody thought of it to the time that actually happened was years. So, we had a long time to consider the impact of that and be out in the market and prepare people and so on. We were fortunate that we didn’t have to do it overnight. And sale and acquisition takes a very long time. So that’s where we were at.

Matt: Okay. Well, moving back slightly into what we were talking about earlier, which you mentioned earlier, and that is facilities management teams driving appreciation across a business. Because we know that sometimes facilities management teams don’t always get the recognition that they should do, right? So how do you think facilities management teams should go about driving appreciation for the maintenance teams across the business and particularly with the top management?

Rachel: I think that’s an excellent thing to ponder. I’ll give that some thought as I talk about it. But I do think that typically facilities are there to support the core business activity. And I think that the physical environment can be easily, really easily downplayed until it becomes an issue. 

So, if we start from that point that FM is a service, top management stakeholders and users therefore become the client base for the service in the main. I think the answer to your question becomes simpler when regarded in that light as FM is a service for its customers and the stakeholders. I have definitely found that a frustration or perceived lack of appreciation for maintenance is perhaps because of a combination of poor FM culture, so all those things we’ve just talked about, and coupled with inadequate processes and channels of communications, or perhaps governance processes depending on the environment, which allow then for transparency, and all of that can feed into a culture of mistrust of the service and its ability to deliver what’s required to support core business. And I’ve seen that happen where senior leaders become engaged in real nitty gritty operational detail on the FM side because I suspect, I don’t know, but I think because there’s a lack of faith about what they need from the FM team to deliver a core business need and there is a lack of faith that it will be delivered as they require it. So, for them the consequences become too great for them to let it be.

So, in thinking about your question, those of us that find ourselves in leadership roles in estates and facilities, we enjoy a position where we can bring vision to the estate. And we then hold the responsibility to lead and bring positive culture to our teams and then with the appropriate level of organization management and process and transparency, it then delivers against the whole organization, vision and priorities. And I’m just gonna quote the excellent Simon Sinek when he says, “Transparency doesn’t mean sharing every detail, it means sharing the context of the decisions you make.” And so, in that context, I think we need to really understand what’s relevant and then we can choose how to share that information. And in my experience, I found a consistent, mutually accepted and agreeable way of doing that. then that seems to work. I think the other thing that really strikes me when I think about it is that so much of what FM does is unseen and unknown until it goes wrong and it can or it will, it’s not it can, it will go wrong. And sometimes that can be really spectacular. So that can be highly impactful on core business. So as a leader in estates and facilities, I think it’s in my responsibility and within my gift, to ensure there’s an appropriate degree of transparency and communication to what FM actually delivers to bring that voice.

And obviously that occurs differently in different organizations in different ways. And I think about the skill sets and what that takes. FMs are not naturally and generally strong on PR. It’s not necessarily the thing. We’re not the marketing department, we’re the FM department. So, it takes a conscious effort to ensure that what the team’s planning and delivering and has achieved retrospectively is communicated in a way that’s then meaningful to the organization and for that to be communicated in a way that’s appropriate and proportionate to the audience. Whether that’s the board, senior executive, peers, stakeholders. 

So, all in all, I think in summary, perception is important and that can drive appreciation or lack of for what maintenance teams are delivering. So, get the culture, vision, strategy, reporting, and outcomes right, communicate those effectively, and engage across the organization. I think that could go a really long way to developing that appreciation of what the teams deliver, and those unsung heroes of the things that make things tick in an organization, and foster that positive engagement and working relationships.

Matt: Okay, well in regards to marketing, that’s interesting. Have you ever used marketing to kind of tell people what you’re getting up to?

Rachel: All the time. If I work somewhere that’s got a comms team, they are on my team. They just don’t know it. So just because it’s not my skill set, and I know that, but equally, I know that things have to be communicated in a good and effective way and in a timely way. Things like falling in sync with an organization’s cycle of communications. So, whether it’s a monthly bulletin or something like that. And also know I might not write in a style that’s audience friendly. I might write in a way that’s to my peers in FM it might make perfect sense, but to a wider audience not. So definitely recommend that.

Matt: Well, that’s a really cool idea because as we know, often FM is underappreciated. So, when the kind of team is working together, obviously it’s working a lot better and a lot smoother.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, it helps. I found that it helped. Communications teams are in all areas of the business. So, they take that messaging, so there’s a degree of osmosis that occurs through that process. So, it’s not a perfect science, but there can be some accidental good things that come out of that as well.

Matt: Well, that’s a very interesting way of looking at it and thinking about it. And I don’t think we’ve ever had that kind of answer on the show.

Rachel: I hope that’s a good thing.

Matt: So, there we go. It is. It is. It’s great to have a different way of thinking about it, a different angle. So, fantastic. And so, what then for you is the best way to implement an effective facilities management plan?

Rachel: I think that’s a perfect segue from where I was just talking about communication. So, I’m going to start there. And by that, I mean sharing the plan, objectives, time scale, responsibilities, and having some established processes for review and reporting. Allocating resources. That’s not always easy. I’ve spoken about that already. And then have arrangements for monitoring, so continuous review and evaluation. And because I think we all understand that what was right for yesterday might have changed and is no longer appropriate for tomorrow. So having those processes in place. 

And then again, linking to what I said just now about having processes for identifying and managing the things that go wrong and changes of direction. So, there’s unforeseen things and a problem-solving culture to facilitate that because any environment that is set up where it is a surprise when things go wrong in FM is not. fit for purpose, in my opinion, because part of the role of FM is to be proactive, reactive, and responsive and agile to deal with those things when they do go wrong. 

And collaborate, co-produce, I’ve mentioned that earlier, where it’s appropriate, co-produce where you can because that pulls in engagement of others, manage risks thoroughly, and try and mitigate them, head them off at the pass. Have processes for communicating those milestones and outcomes. And then lastly, capture what you’ve learned along the way. There’s always room for improvement next time around.

Matt: Okay, and then so moving on to another section of the show, which we brought this up earlier as well. What do you think about software tools? And do you think they’re useful for managing facilities, management activities?

Rachel: I’m smiling as you’ve asked me that because that’s been something we’ve been talking about recently at work and the place that it has and wholeheartedly, absolutely, a thousand percent yes. 

I think it’s enormously difficult, and impossible, to effectively track compliance and all the requirements actually of the estate portfolio without some level of software. There’s lots and lots of products out there, I’ve come across a few of them, there are many I haven’t yet experienced, but many of them, the CAFM for example, compliance products, and generally the principles are the same, albeit on different scales depending on the organisation. And they allow for a level of automation, I think, which moves us away from a risk factor, which for me is multiple single points of failure that have the potential to exist without them. So, it’s about putting information in a generic repository as opposed to on a local file that only somebody has accumulated knowledge of. And then that allows for monitoring and reporting and early warning mechanisms for compliance and so on.

So, it allows for that escalation of information using the same source, which single source eliminates an awful lot of scope for human error. So, I would add again from experience about the importance of building a system right, though, you get out, we put in. So, if it’s not built right, I’ve seen organizations invest quite significant sums into software, but not into the know-how required to build it. So, there’s this awful disappointment, they’ve got the excitement. and then the disappointment about what it then delivers down the line. And then it reaches a redundancy prematurely, and then the organisation thinks they need to reinvest and the cycle starts again. So, yeah, really not a fan of that approach, but I do think that they are essential to the workplace in managing FM effectively.

Matt: So, you mentioned that sometimes companies or people will buy tools, software tools and they don’t get enough training on them or they don’t understand them properly. And then they end up thinking that they’re not getting the most out of it. So, then they just go and buy a different one. How would you go about or what would be your advice to them on how they can get the most out of those tools? So, they don’t have to just go and buy another one because they think that they’re not getting everything out of it or it’s not offering enough to them.

Rachel: Yeah. I’m really nodding away as you were asking me that because I’m thinking I know that scenario because they can be seeing certain systems can be seen like a band-aid, you know, it’s a fix to there’s been a problem, something has peaked. So then let’s stick a band-aid on and let’s solve it with this. And I think it goes back to what I was saying that if an organization doesn’t invest the know-how that’s needed locally, then it doesn’t evolve within an organization. So, you need your super user, you need someone, but then tacked onto that, maybe someone who is more technical. So that building that knowledge of what it could do, and then looking at the evolution of that, because a lot of products have updates that then are that continuous improvement, because those products are still being sold in the marketplace. So, they have to stay current. So, their way to stay current is to evolve.

There are very few products that, in my view, that become wholly redundant just like that. It might be that the business has changed and therefore the need might not be aligned anymore. So, but generally, if you take a CAFM system, for example, they’re all, generally in the market, they’re all capable of doing what we need them to do. I think there’s a resistance to invest in software upgrades. And I think some of that comes from not understanding the benefits of those things. So going back to what you’re saying, I think it’s about making sure that there is that knowledge. And someone who’s got the space and the capacity to understand what its potential is and what its scope could be for the organization. It’s a difficult one when there are pressures against resources, I think that’s really difficult to do.

Matt: Yeah, and sometimes FM can be a very busy job and people are focused more on, or they’re busy making sure that nothing is breaking rather than getting the time or focusing on improving the way that they actually work.

Rachel: Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, the thing about [that], I was talking earlier about reactive maintenance versus moving to a proactive maintenance strategy. That takes time because you’ve got to keep pedaling whilst you’re at it. And then that understanding that, that view of what’s coming down the track, there’s somebody over here that needs to be not pedaling as fast as everybody else, because they’re taking that more strategic view. The same thing with software, if it’s about how do we split our time and how do we prioritize resource? So, is it that 80% of the people are dealing with what’s in the moment and 20% are sort of looking at what’s coming? And I think that’s where people like me come in, in my role currently, where my role is strategic and therefore, I am meant to have that focus and be able to prioritize that and be able to communicate that so that there is buy-in for it. I think that requires a commitment to that level of continuous improvement. But for that to work, if that’s embedded in the strategy in the first place, then it has the potential, maybe in some environments, to gain traction.

Matt: Yeah. And talking about tech, have you been using AI in your roles?

Rachel: I have. I love a bit of AI. Bit of a tech queen.

Matt: Yeah. What types of AI tools have you been using?

Rachel: So, it’s interesting actually, I used to have my own management consulting company and I used to go into different organisations and look to assess the health of their estate. And over time in that environment, I built a spreadsheet that had all these questions on it and so on. And then I’ve moved into working in education. So, I used AI to assess my spreadsheet of work that I’ve developed over a number of years to look at the requirements for effective estate management in schools and reflect back to me any gaps. So, it did a gap analysis for me on that, which saved me probably quite a lot of time. It was great. Really good too.

Matt: Amazing. And so then going backwards in time, what do you think about using spreadsheets for FM management? Do you still use them? Do they still have their place or are they in the bin?

Rachel: They’re in a halfway house, I think is the answer to that question. Undecided, one foot in, one foot out. I think it depends to what extent. I think I’d be lying if I said I never use a spreadsheet. I do like a good spreadsheet.

Matt: You did mention the spreadsheets.

Rachel: Yeah, yes. But I’m in balance with that. I really would not suggest managing facilities solely on spreadsheets. I think it feels outdated in my experience and certainly open to too much risk for the organisation.

Matt: Yeah. All right, Rachel, you’ve given us some fantastic insight there. And like I said before, it really sort of allowed us to think about things differently in this episode. So I really appreciate that. So wrapping things up then, going into the last section of the show, what are your top three tips for our listeners on effective facilities management?

Rachel: Only three. Can I only have three?

Matt: You can have some more if you like.

Rachel: Well, I’ll start with three, let’s see how it goes. So obviously everything I’ve already said, but if I had to wrap them up into three things, first of all, I would say know your estate. And to know your estate, you need your primary data. So, what assets have you got? What condition are they in? And what’s your plan, including priorities, to manage them? And know how that sits alongside your organization’s financial resource and business priorities. Those two things have to sit together. So that’s my first one. 

My second one is about the people. Understand the skills of your in-house teams and your outsourced contractors and know how you can utilize them most effectively to deliver those requirements, all those things that have been identified and the business requirements. So, to make that possible, invest in continuous professional development for that team and ensure that you’ve got the appropriate skill set to deliver against the priorities delivered through or identified through the plan. 

And my last one, which would be [to] invest in yourself. I think FM is a discipline that’s constantly evolving and things can pass us by if we’re head down, not investing time in building and engaging with a professional network. Join a professional body, network, build the network, because that’s where the knowledge is. And there’s some fantastic development opportunities continuously available to us through those networks.

Matt: Okay. So wrapping it up in a bow, what’s your favourite saying or quote on FM?

Rachel: I’ve got two. Sorry, I stuck to three on the last one. So, two for this one, if I may.

Matt: Give us two, it’s all good.

Rachel: I’m gonna quote, I’m gonna quote someone again on this one. So, Benjamin Franklin said “failing to prepare is preparing to fail”. And I think everything I’ve said is all about that preparation. So that would be my first one. And then my second one is I’ve heard this a few times lately and I don’t know where it’s come from, so I can’t source it. I’m really sorry, but it’s “if you can’t measure it, you can’t manage it”. And I’m hearing that a lot lately. And I think when it comes to FM, that’s so true.

Matt: Well, Rachel, you are clearly a wonderful leader and any company would be lucky to have you. So, I’ve got a question for you, which I think is a great question for you. What advice would you give to the people coming up in the business or want to improve their careers and get to your level? What advice would you give to them?

Rachel: I’d say two things. Yes, maybe more than two things, probably knowing me, but certainly join[ing] professional bodies. Look at the training, some of the training that comes through those, the accredited training is excellent. It’s as robust as you possibly need it to be. No frills, it’s straight to the point what people need to know. Find someone who can mentor you. Just if you know the job you want to be in, do a little bit of that, be around that person. I think quite often career progression comes when we start to sort of snap at the heels of the person ahead of us in the queue. It’s that, start picking up some of what they’re doing and being around that. I have more things to add, what was I thinking as well? So, it’s the training, the networking.

Also actually, for example, a role that I’m about to go to market for, somebody’s resigned. And it’s an assistant manager role and I’m advertising it saying there will be training attached to this role. So, seek employers who are prepared to invest in training and it’s not just about on the job, what we learn. There’s a lot to be learned from that, but how do we know it’s right? How do we benchmark it against what’s right and what’s not? Got to get out there and train. And I think too often it’s easy to be very introspective. We’re caught on the treadmill of day after day after day, it’s a very busy role. We need that time to step out. And the guidance I give anyone in my team is once a year, at least once a year, I want to see them offsite, workshopping, going to networking events, because they always bring something back. It’s not always a hangover. They bring something back from what they’ve taken from the event and it’s learning and sometimes its energy. You know, it’s interest, curiosity. So, and then I’m going to have one more thing. Sorry. told you, but there is that, there’s a responsibility on people who are managers who’ve progressed through their careers to share that knowledge. That’s part of the job to mentor, to coach, to look for talent, to seek people out, find out where they want to be, and then help them on that journey. And I think that’s vital. And I think it’s neglectful, I’d be delinquent in my responsibility if I didn’t do that for the people that I’m responsible for.

Matt: Yeah, that’s a really nice way of putting it. And I think, you know, sometimes people might be too protective over their roles and not helping people enough to improve their careers.

Rachel: Yeah. Well, let’s face it, if everyone in one team is performing and growing and enjoying what they’re doing, that’s a team that’s flourishing. There’s no threat in that. That’s the team that’s building and growing. And, if people develop and because of that development, they move on. I’ve done something right in my job. So that’s the point. That’s what we’re here to do. That’s what people did for me. So just passing it on.

Matt: Yeah, that’s a really nice way of putting it. Yeah.

Rachel: Thank you. That’s very kind of you to say.

Matt: Well, thank you so much for being on Rachel. As I said, you’ve given us some really valuable information there. So, I really appreciate having you on as a guest.

Rachel: Thank you, Matt. It’s been a pleasure actually.

Matt: The pleasure is all ours and thank you to all you guys listening to us yet again and we will see you on the next episode. Cheers.