Set Collaborative Maintenance Culture
Maintenance Management Podcast - Episode 2
About this episode
Matt: Hi, My name is Matt and welcome to the Comparesoft podcast. We’re a company called Comparesoft and we’re a comparison website for maintenance management software. Think-go-compare for B2B software and today we’re going to be interviewing Jonathan Larkin, the associate maintenance director of GL property maintenance. And we want to interview experts like Jonathan to know how they manage their maintenance activities. And we’re going to talk today about how Jonathan goes about maintenance in business. So hi Jonathan. Welcome to the show and the podcast. Great to have you here with us. How’s it going? How’s business been going?
Jonathan: Good. We’ve had a good 2019 and towards the back end of 2018, things went quiet and we put it down to Brexit like everyone else, but it was just one of those things. I mean, in our world of contracting, you have ebbs and flows. And a sort of famous tagline is feast or famine and we definitely had a little famine for I’d say only about four to five weeks coming into Christmas last year, but if anything that kind of gave us a kick up the backside to really get prepared for 2019 and yes today it’s been a really good year actually really good year.
Matt: That’s absolutely great to hear. Very interesting that you say Brexit made kind of dent or made a difference. Why do you think that is?
Jonathan: It is uncertainty and nervousness. If we end up with no deal or plan Brexit or even a remain vote. From our side, it doesn’t really matter, we think anyway. Because majority of our clients are public sector or commercial bodies that don’t rely solely on how the economy’s doing, they’re kind of separate to that I’d say. It’s more government and what their budgets are. It doesn’t matter too much which way we go to be honest. So yes. I mean, the decision makers sat on their hands towards the back end of Q4 2018. But this year it’s been rolled over so many times. It wouldn’t surprise me if it’s rolled over another couple of times next year depending on who gets in come the election. And yes, from our side this year, the decision makers let’s say, they’re just kind of rolling really, there’s been no real change.
Matt: Yes. That’s very interesting. In fact, actually quite a few people have told me that the property industry has dropped massively anyway. The market is very much down, isn’t it? And especially in London and London is usually quite a bubble, but I’ve had people telling me that the whole thing is down right now and I think it’s exactly as you say, people are just waiting, aren’t they?
Jonathan: Yes. In the property market specifically. Again, we don’t do development or investment as a firm, but it’s something we’ve always got an eye on and we look at the key market indicators and in particular as you said London, the market has fallen dramatically, especially prime central London. But again, as we are government body focused, the budgets and the decisions are still there because things have to keep going on. You can’t stop because of uncertainty. So from a maintenance point of view, the government buildings, bit of schools, council offices, care homes, police stations, whatever that may be from the maintenance side, well we’ve had Brexit now for nearly three years I think it was 2016. So you can’t sit in your hands forever because of what might what might not happen. So yes there’s the decision makers, the surveyors, the state’s managers, whoever they may be, they have a schedule they have to keep too. They have issues that are planned and not planned and we’re there to fill the void and plot the gap really.
Matt: Well let me give our listeners a little bit of a more of a background about you. Jonathan oversees the day to day running of small works and intermediate contracts on the company’s frameworks and individual contracts. And Jonathan graduated from Liverpool John Moore’s University and holds a first-class honors degree in real estate management. He also has an MSC, Am I right in saying that MSC, is that correct?
Jonathan: Yes that is correct. It sounds fancier than it actually i
Matt: So you have an MSC in investment management from Cass business school as well. I’m sure there’s lots of things I’ve missed out on here. Would you like to sort of give our listeners a little bit more about your background?
Jonathan: Yes. So from the educational point of view, you’re correct there. I had a degree in real estate from John Moores and then moved to do my masters in investment management which is more finance based. I kind of went full circle. So when I was at university, the financial crash was taking place. We were right in the midst of it and studying real estate and surveying, I wasn’t massively in tune with it at the time. And in a kind of, weird way, I went against the normal thought process and looked at banking when really, banking was kind of falling on its ass at the time. And I had this glamorous idea that I could kind of be fund manager or work at hedge fund and do all these kinds of glamorous jobs. And the reality was when I did my master’s, I took this kind of path. And within a year, two years, I just really realized actually, this isn’t me in the slightest. I’ve always found myself quite entrepreneurial and working in a massive corporate institution — I used to work for a company called Aberdeen asset management, which are now called Standard Life Aberdeen.
Matt: Yes. I’ve heard it.
Jonathan: Yes. So it’s a big firm. Globally however many people work for them. And I just found working for a corporate firm playing politics, trying to climb the ladder, I’ve got umpteen people ahead of me, a lot of them in my opinion undeservedly, friends of the business etc. That kind of people speaks volumes in that world and I just found myself massively disillusioned again. So I’d gone from being disillusioned at Uni to then disillusion to my work life. And I was starting to question what I was actually doing. So I then had a conversation with my father, who actually is the boss of this company. Has been for the last — or since inception, for the last 35 years. And I basically sat down to lunch with him and said, look can I come work for you? Which took him by surprise. But from my mind, as I said, I had that kind of entrepreneurial vision in my head, and it was never going to be achieved in the financial world. As not to say I wanted to come and work for GL and lay bricks or build houses. It was more, I could see a good business that was going to be wound up in the next 10 years because there was no succession plan and I thought to myself, well I can take it to the next level, I can do something with it. So the conversation kind of went, are you sure, are you mad etc. And he basically says as — I spoke to my brother and various friends about this and he said, why don’t you take some time out and go see the world? I’d never travelled at all. I’ve always done internships during my summer holidays. It was quite studious growing up, and I’d never seen the bigger picture. So I started off doing a few months traveling in Africa and then that turned into six months through Asia and then nine months through Indian and Sri Lanka and before I knew it, I was 11 months down the line. I’d done all these amazing things at amazing places and it was like right, I’m run out of money. It’s definitely time to come home.
Matt: I think it’s super important though, right? I mean, it’s really important I think traveling –?
Jonathan: I wouldn’t change it for the world. I mean, I think from my side I did it at, I think I was 25 when I went and I went on my own so I travelled the whole thing as an individual. A lot of my friends did it 21 after uni or before Uni as mates and probably looking back, I probably think that’s a bit too young. You’re a little bit naive about how things work and I think as an individual, you probably haven’t figured out yourself who you are. As where at 25, I was pretty sure about, where I want — well I say I was sure about where I was going but I wasn’t because I’d already changed my degree and then changed my job but as an individual I kind of knew what I was about. And I just think to do it at that age, I think is the perfect age really. Not too old, not too young.
Matt: Yes. And it probably helped you to solidify exactly as you say, who you are, definitely does — traveling doesn’t it?
Jonathan: Not to dwell too much on the point but going on your own, you have to you have to get out your comfort zone. Not just once but every day every week because you’re always around new people and new systems, new settings. So it made me grow massively.
Matt: And it’s great for business as well, isn’t it? I mean, it has an impact on everything as well and obviously it helps you with business too, and even better now, you’ve joined up with your family in this business and you’re carrying on and pushing it forward. I mean, your dad must have been well, pretty happy or was he?
Jonathan: He was. I think after he got over the initial shock of why you’re leaving Aberdeen? You’ve got a great job, a great career, to come and work for me kind of thing. But I think he probably won’t say it to my face, but he was pretty pleased. But he’s good, I think I’ve been here four and a half years now. We’ve had this transition of where he’s obviously managing director and still very much is managing director. But I’ve got my own ideas, my own vision, and he’s kind of given me enough rope to go with it really. And thankfully, I’ve made mistakes. You’re always going to make mistakes. You never stop making mistakes, but they’re gradually getting smaller and smaller and less and less. And I haven’t had too many big clangs which has been a good thing for the business really.
Matt: So it’s great that the family — that obviously it’s a family business. Could you tell us a little bit more about what you do inside the company, how you’re taking it forward and give us a little bit more specifics about your role within the business?
Jonathan: Yes. So as an individual and a business, there’s two different answers to this. So as a business, we are a general building contractor. We essentially act as a main contractor to government bodies and corporate clients. We typically do works up to the value of about 2 million pounds. And we undertake works basically within the refurbishment world, the maintenance world and they kind of fit out world. And we do some new builds but that new build often sort of extends to as much as extensions rather than building new houses. And within that kind of world, we work for predominantly emergency service clients. So a particular constabulary within our area is one of our biggest clients. We work for care homes across North London and the south east. We do a lot of schools and again, London and sort of half of cheer way. And then we’ve started working with a lot of commercial clients doing sort of office work and industrial refurbishments, which can kind of vary between warehouses, retails and retail and logistic sector. And then as an individual, my title is essentially varied. It’s project manager predominantly. I think my LinkedIn says I’m an Associate Director. But for me, personally a title isn’t a huge thing. It’s more what I do as a small run family business that’s been going for 35 plus years. We’re a very tight knit number. So my day to day varies from it could be business development Monday it could be Project Management client relationship, HR, finance, it’s kind of you do everything really. Predominantly, client liaison and managing projects, and then managing the guys as well. So I guess an operational slants my role as well. So it varies day to day I’d say.
Matt: Yes, I mean, it sounds like you wear many hats and that’s a good thing because you’re not doing one thing.
Jonathan: You have to in this business. And then, especially with this particular type of kind of run business, we’re not — don’t have a staff of 20, we have a very small staff within the Office. So it’s a case of you’re here, you have to learn your craft, but you also have to make sure you deal with all the not so fun jobs as it were.
Matt: Yes. I mean no days the same, I’m guessing.
Jonathan: No, definitely not. And its 24 seven, my phone’s always on. I work Saturdays if I have to, I can even work Sundays if necessary. There’s no — even holiday I’ll be doing emails and answering the phone. Not because — I don’t begrudge it as such, it’s just that I understand the importance of keeping things ticking in and making sure that as a business, we’re constantly functioning and serving our clients the best we can really.
Matt: Yes. And how would you go about setting a good maintenance culture?
Jonathan: Yes. That I think there’s a variety of things to this. I mean, first and foremost, the guys on the ground on site, you have to show that you’re leading from the front. But you also have to make sure that they’re involved. You set an example and they follow you. But you have to kind of make their day to day interesting as well and worthwhile. So if we’ve undertaken certain works, I’ll always ask the guys of their opinion because at the end of the day, I’m not a carpenter, I’m not a plumber, I’m not an electrician. As you said I have to wear many hats. So it’s a case of, I’m not a specialist in certain things. If I’m not 100% sure on something, I’ll say to one of the guys be it Paul, I say, Paul what do you think of this or how do you think we should go about this? And that way he feels valued because he’s having an input. But at the same time, I’m getting his knowledge without saying, Paul do this. And he may think, well that’s not the right way. Why is he telling me to do that? But on the flip side, I then have to go to the client and say, I think we should do it this way, or I have to make certain decisions, and they have to see that. I always think it’s a bit of a fine balancing act. You have to make sure that you seem to be strong and decisive, but you also have to be open and — what’s the word — open and informative and encourage them to kind of be passionate about their job really. Because these guys are doing the job day in, day out. Some days is really hard and its manual labor in some sense. It could be outside in the cold in the dark in the wet. I have the luxury of an office or a car. I am not outside, getting rained on or I’m not having to be on site at seven in the morning out in the cold doing X, Y and Z. So you have to make them enjoy their jobs more than what they already do.
Matt: It’s like a mutual respect right?
Jonathan: Yes of course. You to empower them. Because people are human. They have emotions — that they’re not robots, you can’t expect everyone to be the same every day. So I think, yes. We try and instill that, that’s not just me, that’s everyone in the office. And I think this reciprocal thing with the guys as well. So it’s that kind of proactive, I guess, approach to management, as well. So we as a company, we really stress — we always say to the guys look, think for yourself sometimes. Or saw that, why didn’t you raise it or things like that. Because at the end of the day, we’re all fighting for the same team, we’re on the same ship. Because if we get stick from a client, let’s say over a certain thing and somebody could have been proactive and foreseen it or was aware of it, then, it doesn’t reflect well upon all of us, not just an individual. And I think as well, if they’re adding value, I mean, I know that’s a massive buzz term at the moment. But we have to add value to our clients and if you’re proactive — I don’t know. Let me give you an example. Say we’re on a particular state, like a [00:17:36 Unintelligible] state headquarters build a state of say, 20 buildings for a particular client. And obviously, this is like a little mini town and if we’ve got paving slabs that are starting to be uprooted or present themselves as trip hazards or there’s another particular defect we see, for us to leave that and walk passed it and think well it’s not our problem is completely the wrong message we’re sending out. If we’re seen to be proactive and going to our clients, either from the guys on the ground or from management in the office, have you seen this? You should really get this fixed. I mean, it sets the precedent. The client’s like no, that’s good. Our contractors are not just working for us, because they have to. They’re working for us because they want to. And it’s a catchy tip because at the end of the day, we’re creating more work for ourselves. But we’re doing it with the best intention of our clients need. Because if somebody was — so just going back to that example again about the paving slabs, if somebody was to fall over let’s say, well they could sue the client, and then all of a sudden, you’ve got a whole heap of whatever. But if we’ve absolved that risk or mitigated that risk beforehand, it pays dividends in the long run. We try not to set — going back to this kind of empowerment and being proactive, we try not to be too in-forceful in terms of ,on the guys of saying, well, why — there has to be an element of trust. It’s not like we’re — Okay. I’ll give an example. We’re not like a TV license kind of detective. I don’t just turn up on your doorstep and say, you haven’t done it this way or you haven’t done it that way. If I see something’s wrong, I’ll talk to one of the guys on site and say, well why didn’t you do like this or you should have done it like this. And it could just be an oversight on their part. As I said, going back to the point, everyone’s human and occasionally we miss things. In building world, you can’t afford to do that, which is why we have quality assurance checks carried out through our site. So there’s always a second check as it were, which is massively important. But at the same time, if someone makes the mistake here and there, I think going back to the cultural side, we’re not going to bark at them left, right and centre. It’s a case of continuous improvement and how can we learn from that and move forward. And on the on the flip side, it gets to that as well. From a cultural point of view, we try to implement a reward scheme. So obviously, a lot of the works we do are on price. And if the guys are productive and they really bust their nuts to get something done and as long as it’s done to a high quality and clients signed it off and it’s done to a certain standards, come the end of the year, if we got a really good year, then we look to reward the guys. You have to. We’ve done days out of the cricket, social events. It’s just little things to keep people motivated and wanting to come and work for you guys. But also that transpires to the work they do on site. If you’ve got happy people working for you, well, then you’ve got, you’re going to get happy results on site because that transmits into their work and that they want to be there and they’re pleased to get things done.
Matt: Yes definitely. I think that’s super important in business isn’t it, to have a team morale up and have people who want to do the job and are happy in the job as well.
Jonathan: I know people that work in the city for a certain bank or certain firm whatever, and they work these horrendous hours, horrendous cultures and they’re just miserable. And I think to myself, you can’t be getting the best out of someone If they’re not happy and they’re not giving their 110% because they’re just miserable.
Matt: Yes. Well they get driven into the ground, don’t they –? The bank bankers —
Jonathan: There’s a lot of things that make up a good culture and as I said there, it’s the proactiveness, your leadership. The reward is the very end piece of the puzzle I think. If all those things come beforehand, then the rewards is obvious it’s there. But everything kind of has to follow first.
Matt: Yes definitely. And so how do you go about planning maintenance activities? How would you go about planning?
Jonathan: The clients where we have repeat business or on a framework with where we have a contract, say to be their number one contractor or will have first precedent over x, y and z. There’s two sides to it really. So you have the planned maintenance. So they’ll have like a schedule of planned maintenance works that will require somebody to come in and kind of do that. And then you have the reactive side. So from the plan side really, it comes down to the guys in the office, that’s where we — that’s the kind of our bread and butter. You have client liaison where from the start of a work to the finish of the work, you are the main point of contact. You oversee the whole process, be it organizing subcontractors that do specialist works or organizing your own direct labour to do particular types of works. And that client could involve a number of people. So its first and foremost, it’s almost always the client that is paying you. So the state’s manager, the surveyor on site. And it could also be the consultant working on behalf. So for example, schools will always have more than likely employee consultants or they have site managers who work directly for them. So they are your go to guys. But then they can also be a third party involved in that. So you’re doing — I’ll give an example, we’re doing five doors for one of the care home clients we work for across their entire state. So obviously the incline is the estates manager that I deal with on sort of a weekly basis. But then at the moment, I’m also having to deal with external third-party fire risk assessors to verify certain parts of the surveys they’ve given us because they don’t quite tally up with what is in front of us. This would be considered planned maintenance obviously. And it’s obvious, the organization starts probably two months before you actually get onto site for such a big job when you’re doing 13 different care homes, probably a 1000 doors. It’s a continuous planned cycle. So yes. You’re going to ask the question of how we plan for it. Well, it’s a logical approach. You give them a template program of works. You work out how long it’s going to take you, what works needs to be involved, how you set up your site and just basically keep them in constant contacts. Communication is the biggest thing within our industry. You’d be surprised how many people don’t talk to each other or forget to pick up the phone and all of a sudden, all hell breaks loose because somebody has turned up the site and someone’s unaware of it, or someone starts doing work and somebody hasn’t signed anything. The start and the finish, I think the most important things. Once everyone’s settled down, the work has started, it becomes much, much easier. But if you fail to prepare, you’re going cause yourself more heartache than necessary. And then with the reactive maintenance side, I mean, that’s a case of leaking tap, the roofs leaking or there’s been a fault with the electrics. They’re things you obviously don’t plan for, but the good thing is that, from our side, we have such a list of contractors and we also have direct labor, guys who work for us on the books that as a company we’re small enough and nimble enough to kind of be there within an hour, possibly two hours depending on location of site to kind of get the issue resolved. And it’s very much I mean — from recent examples we’ve had, it’s a case of, I’ll be on my computer, sitting here doing — my head’s in a completely different world and I get a call from a site manager or a surveyor saying this has happened and this has happened, can you help sort of thing. And I’ll be like, right. Okay. You have to go to firefighting mode. How can I deal with the issue to stop, say it’s a water leak and just to get that done and then you can finish the job maybe the day after or two days after? So personally, I have to drop everything and just put my head into that world, speak to the relevant people, are you about, can you do this, can you get it sorted and just go there? There always little finicky jobs. You’re not looking to make any real profit on these jobs. It’s a case of, you’re just there to please a client and get it done because again, the bigger picture, it pays dividends to help other people out. If you do a particular school a favor or you do a particular surveyor a favor by putting their fire out for them as it were, then down the line, you’d always be at the forefront of their mind for any future projects they’re considering contractors for?
Matt: Yes definitely. And do you think software tools are useful for implementing and managing maintenance activities?
Jonathan: I think yes and no. I personally work on spreadsheets, word documents and emails. So not the most advanced software tools, but enough, they’re kind of rudimentary and they do a job for me.
Matt: What’s your opinion on those on using spreadsheets for maintenance management?
Jonathan: Yes. Again, going back to the clients we work for, predominantly public sector, they haven’t got the money or the funds to implement such software. So a lot of their surveys, a lot of their works and practices are done via Excel. So from our side, we kind of work off what they give us. I guess it’s vice versa. It’s not a case of — if we really wanted to, we could go down the route of implementing IT systems or new software that sort of track assets and the likes. But because we’re not a pure facilities management firm, we don’t solely just do maintenance work, it’s just one arm of many. It’s just one part of our business, then we don’t see personally the value of it. I think going forward, we will do but right now our business isn’t there if I’m honest. But that’s just the way we are, I’m sure in time that will change. I mean, going back to the point we’re a family business, if you think my world of working is slightly archaic then you should see the boss’ way. He just does it all. He remembers everything in his head and kind of just does it through meetings with other people, which is an art in itself.
Matt: Is it a nightmare for everyone else?
Jonathan: It can be at times but once you’ve worked with him, you kind of understand him and you learn to pick up off the phone what needs to be done. We have a way of working and it works for us, it’s proven. But there is an argument for maintenance software. I get that. Further down the line, it’s probably something we would look at. But for the moment, it wouldn’t be for us at this moment in time.
Matt: And how would you say you can use maintenance as a competitive advantage?
Jonathan: I guess, because we’re not a pure FM firm as mentioned, we have to go down the line of customer relationships or client relationships, being proactive and having that experience of working in the public sector. So we have a track record of working with schools, emergency services, care homes of like 30 plus years. So instantly the client feels at ease. We have direct labour so the guys who work for us on the books. We have our own vans, our own tools. We have an out of hours facility. So our mobiles are 24/7. We have a call centre facility. So we’re equipped to react if necessary, but we’re also geared up to do planned maintenance. So again, we have that kind of the offering as it were.
Matt: Total infrastructure.
Jonathan: Aside from having direct labour, we have a list of subcontractors that are 50 Plus. And I say they’re loyal because they’ve been working for us for so long. So they know how we work and we know how they work. And a lot of our clients know how they work, because we’ve been using the same guys and it’s a repeat business for us. And that last point which I mentioned at the start was very much being proactive. You have to be seen to be giving a service, you have to add value somewhere. You can’t just be there to take advantage of the coffers, let’s say. You’ve got to be seen giving something back to the client. And if you can show that willingness to kind of deliver what they want but go above their expectation, then that really puts you in good state for the future. And as I said, a lot of our business is repeat and that’s because of the relationships we’ve built over the years and the quality of offering we’ve given these clients which is something we pride ourselves on.
Matt: I’m sure our listeners would love to know your top three tips on maintenance. What would those be?
Jonathan: I mean, I’ve said it I don’t know how many times, about being proactive. As a business, we’re proactive, as individuals, we’d like to be proactive and give that value-add proposition. It’s too easy just to say, we do maintenance. Anyone can do that. A handyman can do that. It’s not. You have to give something more. We also — I think regular spot checks and surveys are an effective form of maintenance. The amount of times we’ve dealt with clients that have let things get so long that maintenance is no longer required. You’re talking more than just maintenance like a bigger project. And so one thing we try and do for our clients is a lot of fire doors that we carry upgrades on or install, we provide like an ongoing service. We put together asset matrixes, which basically pinpoints everything we’ve done, where it’s been done, location, and it gives them like an overview. Allows them to go out every six months, every year, pinpoint what’s been done. What needs to be done going for the next round of work. And it keeps everything up to date especially in this current climate with fire doors and fire stopping. It’s so prominent, you have keep everything up to what the regulations require. And I think the third point of effective maintenance would be; the contractors that work for you, you can’t let them go stale. And that includes us. I guess that’s twofold really. Our subcontractors, we can’t let go stale and as a contractor for clients, we can’t go stale. You have to look to innovate, offer new services. And I don’t mean offer say a cleaning service over a refurbishment service. I’m talking more adding efficiencies and value to what they’re asking you to do. Because ultimately, if you don’t offer that it sort of innovative way of thinking or that forward looking approach, then you become stale and irrelevant and people move on around you and all of a sudden, you’re out of work. I guess from the public sector point of view as well, just thinking on the client side here from their side, for them to innovate and kind of be more efficient is massive because you look at the cuts in budgets, the squeeze on the public purse, and also the accountability they have as a company or entity let’s say. They can’t be seen to be spending huge amounts of public money on unnecessary maintenance or building needs. It has to be functional and value for the off of the overall public. So yes, I think innovation would be one.
Matt: Okay. That’s interesting. And so what would your favourite saying or quote on maintenance be?
Jonathan: Yes. I saw this earlier and there — I do have a quote or saying that I saw about a year and a half ago. I read a book. It was published by navy seal on basically mindset. I never quite finished the book actually that’s a point, it just reminded me. I read a book that was published by a navy seal about a year and a half ago. He was one of the Navy seals that was part of the group that caught Bin Laden. He’s obviously, off the back of that, got a book out and he’s now become very famous off it. But one of his one of his quotes that kind of resonate with me quite a lot was basically discipline equals freedom. And I feel like you can kind of apply that to any walk of life. With maintenance, maintenance only occurs when things are left to become dilapidated or unserviced. If you’re disciplined as a client getting out their maintenance works, then you’re absorbing a lot of that maintenance work. And as a contractor, the service we’re offering our clients, if we’re disciplined in the way we approach things and the service we provide, then it’s only going to lead to repeat business because we give ourselves that freedom to not have any grief, any hassle, any kickback, any complaints. It’s a win-win really, everybody is better off at the end of the day.
Matt: Exactly. Well, some very wise points there that I’m sure our listeners are going to take on board. Well, I’d like to say thanks for coming on the show, for coming on the podcast. It’s been absolutely great to hear your thoughts on everything and answering our questions. So yes, GL property maintenance work with clients to deliver high quality building solutions that meet their complex needs. They’ve been trading for over 35 years with a handful of trusted subcontractors, tradesmen, and employees sticking with them from day one. And they’ve got a long-standing relationship with many of their clients, as well as the necessary tools to adapt to the ever-changing environment. So is there anything else that you want to put forward about the business that our listeners should know?
Jonathan: Yes. From our side, we’re a 2-million-pound turnover company. We’re looking to grow that to 10 million pounds in the next five years. That can only be done through obtaining new clients. So yes, if anybody’s listening here that’s kind of working for public sector or commercial and is looking for an established and trusted main contractor, be it maintenance refurb or fit-out works, then yes, please do get in touch.
Matt: Awesome. Well thanks very much Jonathan for coming on the podcast and the show and I’ve been Matt Cooke. Thanks for listening everyone, and can’t wait to see you at the next podcast. Stay tuned.
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